This post is a reply to the comments made by Jessica regarding our previous post on dating, all of which you can read here.
Hey Jessica,
First, there's really no need to apologize for the length of your comments - I enjoyed reading them, and I like writing long comments myself. Blogger really needs to get over these space limits.
Also, I think you've mistaken the point of this blog entry, which isn't to bash Josh Harris, but to define "dating" and to question the animosity that I have personally witnessed toward "dating" in the Christian community. The point is that dating has a lot of merits, and it's not the evil institution that many leaders make it out to be. I think Harris approach, which lacks consistency and is, therefore, hard to define, analyze, or to follow, has many elements similar to dating. On the whole, I believe his approach shelters people way too much, though Harris' approach might be practical for minors (this blog is typically directed at an 18+ crowd) who may be too young to date safely, maturely, and purely.
This blog is free to read, and I am not selling anything (though I have considered one day writing a book on this subject)On the whole, for adults, I believe dating is an opportunity worthy of investigation. It will not harm me if people read this entry on dating and completely disregard it, but I hope they at least consider it. So often wisdom is contrary to our human, fleshly nature (e.g. you must die to live), and isn't the easy path typically the wrong path? Dating is NEVER easy, and it requires a lot of courage.
This blog entry is not about me claming that dating is Bible-mandated. The point I am making is that dating is a wise, logical approach not prohibited by the Bible. I believe that dating is a very difficult and often scary enterprise, filled with risks of rejection and setbacks, but also I believe that the benefits far outpace the costs. I don't advise anyone to try it without a lot of prayer, time in the Word, and conscious goal-planning, but in my experience, and the experience of others I know, dating gets positive results. The vast majority of the happily married Christian couples I know dated before they got engaged, even if they already knew each other. I am blissfully married because God blessed my efforts in dating and relationships: I tried, then I failed, then I learned, then I changed, then I tried again. I repeated that process hundreds of times before meeting an marrying my wife. Others I know have found the process much less arduous, and many of my friends only went on a couple of dates before meeting their spouses. I think the timing often has a lot to do with God using the dating process to teach us how to better interact with members the opposite sex before getting married to one. As a happily married man, I can tell you that the experiences I gained dating other women have helped me immensely in learning how to better love my wife and how to be a better husband, generally.
You will never regret the experience you accummulate dating after you are married unless you sinned while dating. Dating brought me positive experience in understanding women and how to relate to them. It helped me learn how to be affectionate during a heated argument rather than shouting. It helped me learn not to take my wife for granted. The most important experience was in learning how to communicate more effectively with women, which experience paid dividends when I got married. Also, my dating experience taught me just how many of Satan's lies our culture has boought into, especially when it comes to our perceptions of the opposite sex, love, relationships, and especially marriage.
You seem a bit tense in your words, Jessica, if not with me, then maybe with dating or relationships - I don't know. Your comment seemed to reply to things I have not said. For instance, I never called anyone "silly," I only indicated that something my wife's friend said was silly. We all say silly things at times, but that does not make us "silly people." That may seem like a minor point, but I want it to be clear that my judgment was of this girl's statement, not the girl herself. She's a believer with a good heart, and I certainly meant no offense to her.
Also, you wrote, "Why not, instead, invite both girls along out to eat, as well as another guy or two..." In my entire article, I never made the case that group activities were a bad. Obviously, we must meet people before we can date them. I think group activities, especially those organized by a Bible-believing church, are an excellent way to meet and get to know members of the opposite sex BEFORE dating them. Also, I don't distinguish between group outings and group dates, except possibly to say that the latter involves an interest that the former possibly does not. I am only opposed to group activities as an absolute alternative to dating, because I really do believe that eventually two people of the opposite sex need to spend time alone together before making any commitments. That's just good, practical advice: don't commit to someone you don't really know. You don't really know someone you've never spent time alone with. Trust me: men and women act differently in group settings. However, that said, Jessica, meeting a man in a group environment is a good idea if only for safety sake. I would never advise you to spend time alone with a man you only barely know (unless it was in a public place with proper precautions).
The question is, where does your animosity to dating really come from? If the answer if fear of rejection or emotional hurt, then I advise you to consider whether you really want to make decisions based out of fear. So often in life, nothing ventured truly is nothing gained. Dating requires a degree of boldness that doesn't come easily to everyone. I think an sxcellent case can be made for dating. Is dating right for everyone? I am not prepared to go that far, but it seems that more people avoid dating out of silly reasons or fearful reasons than Biblical or logical reasons. What do I define as silly? Well, for one thing, outcome determanitive reasonins. You made the point that, if my friend remains single, that God must have wanted her to be single.
That same, flawed logic is used to blame God for a host of problems that plague this world. Just because God has the power to manipulate and micromanage the world, doesn't mean he actually does take affirmative action to cause every bad thing that happens. If a man smokes all his life then dies from lung cancer,is God to blame? Of course not: he reaped the results of the bad setwardship over his body. Now, God may decide to intervene to save that man from lung cancer, but it is ridiculous to think that God preordained that man to die simply by refusing to work a miracle.
Similarly, I don't believe God does causes people to be alone (at least not in most cases) - people suffer the consequences of their own decisions to act or to refrain from acting, and loneliness is a consequence of failing to make an effort to find someone to spend your life with. In my life, God has worked more miracles in areas where I was making an effort than in areas where I was doing nothing to change my problem. God does not appreciate laziness.
If you take nothing else away from this entry, then I suggest that you consider this: if dating doesn't work for you, then that's fine and dandy, but don't play the "waiting game." Find an alternative approach to dating and pursue it. I have a lot of friends and family (adults) who have never been married that want to be married, and the first question I ask them is what are you doing to pursue that goal? Most of them don't know what to say - they're waiting on God to perform a miracle, I suppose. Doing something is far better than doing nothing.
I doubt any farmer waits on God to make crops grow in his field if he never planted any seeds. Similarly, unless God actively tells you to wait for him to deliver a spouse, you had better be confident that waiting is a Biblical mandate. God will not be mocked, and We reap what we sow (Gal 6:7-8). If we sow nothing, then we shall reap nothing.
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Very true! You know marriage is a huge commitment. One that should be feared and respected. And my personal thought is, if a person doesn't have the guts to date one-on-one, then they don't have the guts to get married. I think that the majority of people that avoid dating do so out of fear, but they justify their lack of effort by spiritualizing the whole ordeal of pursuing marriage. You see, if a person can spiritualize something, like dating, which is essentially getting to know a person of the opposite sex for the purpose of determining life-long compatibility, then they can pass all of the responsibility off on God. It's just like you said about the farmer...He can't spiritualize farming. Either he takes the necessary steps to get a crop or he doesn't. Sure the Lord makes the crops grow, but the farmer has to have faith enough to plant the seeds.
ReplyDeleteI will just take this reply paragraph by paragraph so it will be as organized as possible:
ReplyDelete1. I see what you are saying, and I was not taking it as an attack on Harris. I don't agree with everything he writes either, but I do think he has a good perspective. I prefer Eric and Leslie Ludy, though, as they approach it from a more age-versatile standpoint.
2, 3, and 4. Okay, I see what you are saying. a) People (like me) tend to get caught up on the word "dating." But the thing is, when I date I do not want it to be the typical worldly type of dating. I believe there can be "Godly dating." And I think you have, in your own life, distinguished your dating from "normal dating." Still, it's not quite clear that you are doing anything different than typical "dating around" or "going to dinner and a movie, coming home, and making out, letting your emotions get too involved" where dating becomes superficial. Also, the break-up process can be, if not done in the right way, a practice that leads to a sense of "if we don't get along, we just give up" which does not transfer well over to marriages.
However, I am going to go ahead and trust that you dated differently, or at least learned to date differently. That's all I am saying (I think). Like I said, people can get too caught up on the words 'dating' and 'courtship', but they are just general terms that can describe a wide array of practices.
5. I was a little tense, but all I was trying to do was point out that perhaps you didn't know the whole reason why she didn't want to go out on a date with your friend, or date at all right now. You seemed to be making assumptions about what was going on in her head and between her and God. Maybe you're right, but I know girls like her and their motivations are not anything what you have assumed.
6. Oh, yes, I get that. Once you start dating a person seriously, it is a good idea to spend some time alone (avoiding temptation, of course). But in the mean time, instead of setting up a blind date, it would be much better to just introduce them in a group environment. And I don't think it's good to jump straight to dating...always get to know that person as a friend first.
7. I do not have an animosity toward dating. Hopefully by now you realize that my stance is based off of a want to eventually date, but not in a "I'm just going to go find some singles now that I feel ready to date, and I'll try some guys out and see what comes out of it" kind of way. I do not like this strategy. First of all, I am a girl, and while you seem to have more of a feminist view on things, I prefer not to pursue relationships, as I feel that is the guy's job. That doesn't mean I sit in my bedroom and wait for my knight to come along and take me away, but I am not going to go pursue relationships either. There's a medium.
Continued (I guess I'll not apologize for blog-length comments anymore...:P):
ReplyDelete7 1/2, 8, and 9. You talk about being single as if it were one of the world's great problems bought up on us by our own laziness in dating. But some people really are called to singleness! Ever read 1st Corinthian's 7? Sometimes the call is only for a period in one's life, though, and then that person will get married when s/he is 30, 40, or 50, when God determines it's right. Anyway, it's a blessing to be single, because you can focus more on God. It's only a curse if you look at it that way...and it concerns me that you do.
On that note, God is not to blame for the pain in the world, but he does use pain to his advantage, though. I would recommend reading the devotional "Streams in the Dessert" by L.B. Cowman. God didn't say, "let there be lung cancer!" but he can use lung cancer in so many ways to glorify him and draw us closer to him. Job is a prime example of pain and suffering that glorifies God.
9 1/2, 10, and 11. Don't worry, I understand that we cannot be inactive and expect God to work through all our problems for us. We have to get off our butts and do something too. But we should pray and ask God what that is, not just start doing something to 'help' God because he's not answering your prayers as fast as you want him to. I know God wants me to wait at least another year or so before I date/court/whatever someone. But I am aware that in the past I have had a tendency to "try and make something happen" between me and a guy, like maybe getting too close emotionally, sharing things that should wait till we are actually in a relationship leading towards marriage (if I even end up in a relationship with said guy).
I hope this clears up my stance on these matters. I see normal dating fail all the time. I see friends compromise their morals out of temptation. Probably a lot of it has to do with immaturity, but there are other factors that are quite numerous so I won't mention all of them. I see other friends who are followers of Christ, who have courtship-ish types of relationships that lead to beautiful, pure marriages. I definitely want the latter. And for the record, I don't believe heartbreak is inevitable. It probably will happen to most people, and I'm willing to risk it happening to me. However, I would rather take the route that ensures less heartbreak along the way. I am beginning to think I should do another blog entry specifically on my views on courtship, because they are a lot different than the typical definition.
Jessica,
ReplyDeleteYour comments contain many things that I agree with, some things that I only partly agree with, and a few that I completely disagree with. I will start with the one thing you said with which I most disagree: "...you seem to have more of a feminist view on things..."
Nothing could be further from the truth, and if you read my posts on this blog not related to dating, you will see evidence of that fast. You are, without a doubt, the first person in my entire life to associate me with feminism, which is not a philosophy I care to be associated with. I am not upset, by the way, just letting you know that I am not a feminist and don't care to be associated with feminist ideals.
The perspective or "view" that I aspire to have is a Biblical worldview on all subjects, which is the very purpose of the ATI blog. I was heavily inspired to blog about Christian issues by "The Truth Project," which has been the single most important source of Christian material for me apart from the Bible. Now, I may not always get it right, as I am not perfect, but I try to study the Bible without an agenda, to discern the “truth claims of God” from the lies of Satan, and to apply that truth to my own views, beliefs, and in my life, generally.
That said, like you, I used to believe as you do that the concept of "chivalry" was Biblical. Some facets of our traditions in America regarding how men and women should interest are Biblical, but that is not entirely true. We derive many of our traditions and social concerning courtship, dating, and the roles of men and women in those processes from the concept of chivalry, which originated in the late 10th century in France. I do believe the idea of men treating women softly with respect is Biblical, but the ideas that men must initiate dating and do all of the pursuing are not mandated by the Bible. Such traditions are the creation of man, not of the Word. It may be a tradition that you wish to follow, and that is your right, but do not mistake it for a Biblical mandate.
The Bible seems to support the proposition that women are cast primarily as supporters, but I don't believe women are prohibited from actively pursuing their own goals, including marriage, as long as they do so in a feminine way, respecting God’s design. Ruth, for instance, approached Boaz and asked him, point blank, to redeem her. Sure, Boaz had expressed that he was impressed with her, but it was Ruth who “made the first move.” Many women I know debate this, but they are reading the Bible with the agenda of making Boaz the initiator. In the end, it is a distinction of little importance, because Ruth pursued Boaz, and Boaz pursued Ruth. She placed herself at his feet, and asked him, submissively, to please redeem her. Boaz agreed and took the actions necessary to negotiate with a kinsmen for her redemption so that he could legally so that he could legally marry her.
Both of them worked to be together, and, as I learned from dating, a good relationship, and ultimately a good marriage, requires a lot of risk-taking and effort from both people. Being the first to move doesn’t make a woman a feminist or less feminine, as long as she conducts herself in a manner that is befitting a daughter of the King. Ruth was polite, respectful, and she spoke to Boaz in a way that I believe pleased the Lord, who blessed their union, which gives us Jesse, father of David. CONTINUED BELOW.
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE. Galatians 6 teaches us that being idle and asking God to do all the work with no input from us won't produce any results. God designed this world to work a certain way, and while He will perform miraculous works and bless our efforts, we almost always have some part to play. The Lord didn’t part the Red Sea until Moses obeyed by extending his staff. Similarly, the Lord didn’t tell Pharaoh to let the Jewish people go: the Lord sent Moses to deliver that message. Christ didn’t spread the Gospel, having never traveled very far from the place of His birth: he sent the apostles. In all these things, however, the Lord has caused our works to be blessed and fruitful. We obey, and the Lord moves in power.
ReplyDeleteNow, I agree with you, we all get caught up too much in the word “dating” to presume it is evil. That is because we grow up in a culture where we understand dating through what we see and hear in the secular media, like television, but consider the source. In the TV show “Friends,” dating and relationships was a constant topic, and arguably a part of the premise, but do we want to believe, as Christians, that this is the only way to do it, or do we want to consider that there might be a way to Biblically pursue dating and relationships without foregoing, entirely, healthy one-on-one interactions with the opposite sex?
I don’t distinguish “normal” dating from “Godly” dating: I distinguish Godly behavior from sinful behavior. Dating is just that: spending alone time with someone of the opposite sex. Whether you meet that person are a friend first or are set up on a blind date, the interactions can be either Godly or sinful: that choice is up to the people involved. Blind dates carry the risk that one person may force his choice on the other, so I never recommend completely blind dates unless safety precautions are taken (meet at a public place, get a valid driver’s license number, take a friend, make sure people know where you are and have a plan for checking in regularly, etc.).
Truth be told, I started out dating women, as a teenager, based on things that I had learned from watching television shows and from reading magazines. It took time, prayer, and a lot of mistakes and failures, but I learned that I don’t have to date according the social norms of secular society. I realized, people really don’t have to date in a way that involves sexual immorality or rushed commitments to find a Godly spouse. In fact, I learned that sort of behavior is counter-productive, sinful, and, in many way, absent-minded. Do you, as a Christian, really want to be married to a person who is willing to engage in such behavior? CONTINUED BELOW
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE. And that really is the ultimate purpose for dating as a Christian: to learn how to interact appropriately with members of the opposite sex, in preparation for marriage, and also to introduce ourselves to and get to know, on a deeper level, potential spouses. That may seem silly, at first, because marriage is usually far-removed in time and space from the first date, but setting aside space and time, what else is it that we hope to get from dating?
ReplyDeleteFun is always the first logical answer to that question, and it is partially true: good, clean, and honest fun should be the primary goal of any given first date, otherwise you are going to be putting to much pressure and to many expectations into it. However, the goal for all the dates that you ever go on, before getting married, is to find a committed relationship with someone that may inevitably lead to a marriage blessed by the Lord..
So, here is a quick summary of the approach I eventually learned and applied to great personal success (notice I don’t claim it to be Biblically mandated): (1) consciously make some Godly goals for dating, relationships, and marriage; (2) consciously consider what minimum qualities a potential spouse would need to be acceptable to you; (3) consider whether your list of minimum qualities would be pleasing to the Lord; (4) pray to the Lord to make your list of qualities match His list; (5) actually and prayerfully change what your priorities and what you are looking for in a spouse to match what God wants for you and your life; (6) self-examine and make sure you would be worthy of such a person in the Lord’s eyes; (7) put yourself in a position to meet worthy members of the opposite sex (according the God’s definition of “worthy” – not yours); (8) date worthy members of the opposite sex to get to know them, having fun but avoiding any serious, exclusive commitments with them until you know a person well enough to justify such a commitment; (9) once you have gotten to know a person you believe to be worthy, who also believes you to be worthy, agree and commit to exclusively dating each other (a “relationship” as I define it); (10) while in a “relationship” (exclusive dating) discuss your Biblical views, what you believe it means to love someone, what kind of love is necessary for a successful marriage (1 Cor 13), and what marriage is (hopefully the agreed conclusion a lifelong covenant and commitment before God to live together for life as husband and wife); (11) continue in dating exclusively only as long as it takes to come to for one or both of you to realize either that s/he isn’t ready to commit to loving the other for the rest of his/her life (in which case the relationship should mutually end and both parties go back to step #7) or that they want to spend the rest of their lives together (in which case you pass “go,” collect $200, and advance to step #11; (11) the parties should, if they are certain marriage is their goal (otherwise back to step #10) get engaged, which is a solemn promise to get married (and NOT a testing period, “testing phase,” or “trial run”) and the period of the engagement should be used, primarily, to plan the wedding and make arrangements for starting your new life together without continuing on for any longer than is necessary (if you have doubts about getting married, then you should have stayed at step #10 longer before promising to marry the other person – I learned this the hard way); and (12) you actually get married for the rest of your life, which is a whole other topic. CONTINUED BELOW.
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE. The actual words are just labels: “dating,” “relationship,” “courting,” etc., but the meanings REALLY matter. Think about it: if a man and woman don’t have the same understanding of what they mean, then there is going to be a lot of miscommunication right? That is why, before posting about dating, I wanted an entire post dedicated to defining what I mean when I use the term. I hope these comments have cleared that up, and I hope you go to these same lengths in discussing the subject with the men you date/court. It will save you so much heartache. Be blessed, and I will continue posting on the off-chance something I say helps someone out there in this area.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I do see that you do not have an animosity towards dating - my point on animosity was that I have witnessed, at church an other places, that many believers think that dating is inherently sinful. I don't agree with that, and I think it cvan be done ina non-sinful way
ReplyDelete